1 00:00:10,879 --> 00:00:08,720 on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex 2 00:00:13,220 --> 00:00:10,889 discusses new research linking brain 3 00:00:15,289 --> 00:00:13,230 burst and dying rats to near-death 4 00:00:17,570 --> 00:00:15,299 experience and looks back on his 5 00:00:20,570 --> 00:00:17,580 interviews with dr. Lachman Chava and 6 00:00:22,099 --> 00:00:20,580 science writer Jeff wise it's 7 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:22,109 interesting that you referenced the 8 00:00:25,609 --> 00:00:23,490 near-death experience literature I've 9 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:25,619 had a chance to interview some of the 10 00:00:30,140 --> 00:00:27,930 world's leading near-death experience 11 00:00:31,910 --> 00:00:30,150 researchers and gosh you know I've went 12 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:31,920 back and talked to some about this and I 13 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:33,450 wouldn't find any of them that would 14 00:00:37,700 --> 00:00:36,450 even seriously entertain that kind of 15 00:00:39,950 --> 00:00:37,710 speculation as a matter of fact 16 00:00:41,630 --> 00:00:39,960 privately one of them told me and this 17 00:00:44,180 --> 00:00:41,640 is pretty harsh but it said it's one of 18 00:00:47,990 --> 00:00:44,190 the dumbest explanations for near-death 19 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:48,000 experience yet published so I guess I 20 00:00:51,979 --> 00:00:50,250 was really wondering exactly where 21 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:51,989 you're coming from exactly what 22 00:00:57,979 --> 00:00:54,570 near-death experience research you've 23 00:01:00,049 --> 00:00:57,989 dug into that makes you feel like the 24 00:01:03,590 --> 00:01:00,059 speculation that you're talking about 25 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:03,600 would fit the broader research that's 26 00:01:09,859 --> 00:01:07,170 been done into near-death experience so 27 00:01:11,890 --> 00:01:09,869 I mean I'm not a researcher and yet it's 28 00:01:15,679 --> 00:01:11,900 experiences that's not like primary 29 00:01:17,359 --> 00:01:15,689 scientific interest we are basically at 30 00:01:19,100 --> 00:01:17,369 the bedside taken care of very sick 31 00:01:23,570 --> 00:01:19,110 patients in the intensive care unit and 32 00:01:28,249 --> 00:01:23,580 I don't pretend to have any incredible 33 00:01:30,890 --> 00:01:28,259 insight into what these are or not but 34 00:01:33,499 --> 00:01:30,900 there's this huge disconnect here 35 00:01:35,630 --> 00:01:33,509 between the science media in to a 36 00:01:37,429 --> 00:01:35,640 certain extent the general population 37 00:01:40,429 --> 00:01:37,439 right in terms of just the published 38 00:01:43,340 --> 00:01:40,439 data okay yet any beliefs that I have or 39 00:01:44,899 --> 00:01:43,350 in fact just the published data like I 40 00:01:47,300 --> 00:01:44,909 just told you says that near-death 41 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:47,310 experience is one or non hallucinatory 42 00:01:51,380 --> 00:01:49,890 okay and they're always perceived as 43 00:01:55,550 --> 00:01:51,390 being closer and there's this link 44 00:01:58,069 --> 00:01:55,560 that's made and it is so pronounced that 45 00:02:00,859 --> 00:01:58,079 I just have to wonder if there isn't 46 00:02:02,060 --> 00:02:00,869 something more going on well I don't 47 00:02:04,730 --> 00:02:02,070 know is our society hardline 48 00:02:06,289 --> 00:02:04,740 materialistic I mean I our science is 49 00:02:08,719 --> 00:02:06,299 right because that's the disconnect 50 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:08,729 right the general population right about 51 00:02:12,589 --> 00:02:11,250 near-death experience and on Oprah or 52 00:02:12,980 --> 00:02:12,599 wherever and they're like wow you know 53 00:02:15,050 --> 00:02:12,990 that's 54 00:02:17,510 --> 00:02:15,060 really cool that really relates I know 55 00:02:19,910 --> 00:02:17,520 my uncle did that but when they turn to 56 00:02:21,740 --> 00:02:19,920 science right what they get is just the 57 00:02:22,940 --> 00:02:21,750 opposite yeah no no no no threading 58 00:02:24,380 --> 00:02:22,950 around the corner oh here it is 59 00:02:26,660 --> 00:02:24,390 this will probably explain it just let 60 00:02:28,370 --> 00:02:26,670 it let it play itself out here it is you 61 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:28,380 know and and it's just not true 62 00:02:32,630 --> 00:02:29,850 this idea that a scientific theory is 63 00:02:35,660 --> 00:02:32,640 something that you know try to increase 64 00:02:37,190 --> 00:02:35,670 our understanding by proposing you know 65 00:02:38,450 --> 00:02:37,200 if we're making a prediction but what's 66 00:02:40,670 --> 00:02:38,460 really I think the thing that's often 67 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:40,680 overlooked is that a theory requires a 68 00:02:47,060 --> 00:02:43,290 mechanism stay with us 69 00:02:57,970 --> 00:02:47,070 for skeptic Oh stay with us for skeptic 70 00:03:01,730 --> 00:03:00,230 welcome to skeptic oh where we explore 71 00:03:04,430 --> 00:03:01,740 controversial science but leading 72 00:03:06,500 --> 00:03:04,440 researchers thinkers and their critics 73 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:06,510 I'm your host Aleksic Harrison on this 74 00:03:12,260 --> 00:03:09,570 episode near-death experience science 75 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:12,270 and the media a couple of months ago 76 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:14,850 there was a scientific study that came 77 00:03:19,310 --> 00:03:16,770 out of the University of Michigan that 78 00:03:21,470 --> 00:03:19,320 received a lot of media attention and I 79 00:03:24,290 --> 00:03:21,480 heard from a lot of skeptical listeners 80 00:03:27,710 --> 00:03:24,300 asking me about this it was a study that 81 00:03:30,950 --> 00:03:27,720 found a surge in electrical activity in 82 00:03:33,860 --> 00:03:30,960 the brains of dying rats and it offered 83 00:03:37,070 --> 00:03:33,870 this as a possible explanation for human 84 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:37,080 near-death experiences now as we've seen 85 00:03:41,660 --> 00:03:39,450 in the past research supporting a 86 00:03:43,970 --> 00:03:41,670 conventional explanation for near-death 87 00:03:46,220 --> 00:03:43,980 experiences like this one does no matter 88 00:03:48,530 --> 00:03:46,230 how tentative or speculative the link 89 00:03:50,510 --> 00:03:48,540 those kind of reports receive a lot of 90 00:03:53,030 --> 00:03:50,520 attention from the mainstream science 91 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:53,040 media the study was no exception the 92 00:03:58,100 --> 00:03:54,810 reports popping up all over the place 93 00:04:00,050 --> 00:03:58,110 BBC ABC CBS FOX National Geographic and 94 00:04:01,970 --> 00:04:00,060 I know because as I said many of you 95 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:01,980 were forwarding these to me so I created 96 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:03,810 a quick thread in The Skeptical forum 97 00:04:08,180 --> 00:04:05,610 and I link to an interview I had done 98 00:04:10,820 --> 00:04:08,190 while back with a researcher from George 99 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:10,830 Washington University Medical Center but 100 00:04:16,789 --> 00:04:14,490 I wanted to in this show format provide 101 00:04:19,729 --> 00:04:16,799 an extended link and a little bit more 102 00:04:21,469 --> 00:04:19,739 discussion on that topic and then as I 103 00:04:23,540 --> 00:04:21,479 dug into this a little bit more I 104 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:23,550 thought of another skeptic of show that 105 00:04:26,900 --> 00:04:26,250 I think also speaks to this and that's 106 00:04:30,530 --> 00:04:26,910 an inner 107 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:30,540 you that I did back in May of 2010 with 108 00:04:34,700 --> 00:04:32,730 science journalist Jeff wise who I 109 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:34,710 thought was very open and provided a 110 00:04:40,370 --> 00:04:37,770 interesting look into how this happens 111 00:04:41,810 --> 00:04:40,380 in terms of this snowball effect and how 112 00:04:44,270 --> 00:04:41,820 someone can kind of plant this little 113 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:44,280 meme out there that hey there's this new 114 00:04:47,810 --> 00:04:45,930 study that explains near-death 115 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:47,820 experience don't worry about it anymore 116 00:04:53,690 --> 00:04:50,730 and how that can just have this snowball 117 00:04:55,340 --> 00:04:53,700 effect in receive such momentum in the 118 00:04:58,040 --> 00:04:55,350 mainstream media so I'm going to include 119 00:05:01,520 --> 00:04:58,050 a clip from that interview in this show 120 00:05:02,690 --> 00:05:01,530 as well so first let's start with dr. 121 00:05:06,050 --> 00:05:02,700 Lach Muir chala 122 00:05:08,540 --> 00:05:06,060 who I interviewed in June of 2011 from 123 00:05:10,790 --> 00:05:08,550 George Washington University obviously a 124 00:05:13,190 --> 00:05:10,800 very bright guy I came across his work 125 00:05:15,290 --> 00:05:13,200 if you remember after talking with dr. 126 00:05:18,110 --> 00:05:15,300 Stuart Hameroff at the University of 127 00:05:20,330 --> 00:05:18,120 Arizona and he was hosting his annual 128 00:05:22,490 --> 00:05:20,340 consciousness research conference and 129 00:05:24,620 --> 00:05:22,500 had invited dr. Challa 130 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:24,630 to talk because he thought this finding 131 00:05:29,300 --> 00:05:26,970 was important as you'll hear when I 132 00:05:32,630 --> 00:05:29,310 spoke with near-death experience 133 00:05:36,500 --> 00:05:32,640 researchers they didn't seem to think it 134 00:05:39,110 --> 00:05:36,510 was quite so important so here as I play 135 00:05:42,100 --> 00:05:39,120 this clip keep in mind that that this 136 00:05:44,780 --> 00:05:42,110 directly and I think very conclusively 137 00:05:47,180 --> 00:05:44,790 addresses this recent finding from the 138 00:05:49,670 --> 00:05:47,190 University of Michigan it's the exact 139 00:05:52,100 --> 00:05:49,680 same thing brain surge at death in 140 00:05:54,140 --> 00:05:52,110 challahs case he looked at human beings 141 00:05:57,560 --> 00:05:54,150 the University of Michigan they looked 142 00:06:00,050 --> 00:05:57,570 at rats the same thing the same blind 143 00:06:02,210 --> 00:06:00,060 spot it clearly does it link to 144 00:06:04,909 --> 00:06:02,220 near-death experience research for some 145 00:06:07,370 --> 00:06:04,919 very obvious and important reasons but 146 00:06:09,170 --> 00:06:07,380 of course if you're biased and looking 147 00:06:11,090 --> 00:06:09,180 for such a link because you know it has 148 00:06:13,550 --> 00:06:11,100 to exist because it supports the 149 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:13,560 existing paradigm well then you're 150 00:06:18,710 --> 00:06:15,770 likely to find it at least that's my 151 00:06:21,230 --> 00:06:18,720 explanation for how a researcher can be 152 00:06:25,580 --> 00:06:21,240 led down this path here's the clip from 153 00:06:28,940 --> 00:06:25,590 episode 140 of skeptic Oh so dr. Challa 154 00:06:31,460 --> 00:06:28,950 in 2009 you published a paper with the 155 00:06:33,580 --> 00:06:31,470 surprising discovery that some of your 156 00:06:36,260 --> 00:06:33,590 patients who are very close to death 157 00:06:38,930 --> 00:06:36,270 experienced a final surge in brain 158 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:38,940 activity and the paper has gained quite 159 00:06:42,790 --> 00:06:40,490 a bit of traction media 160 00:06:45,330 --> 00:06:42,800 mention mainly because of this quote of 161 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:45,340 yours we think that near-death 162 00:06:51,189 --> 00:06:48,650 experiences could be caused by a surge 163 00:06:54,610 --> 00:06:51,199 of electrical energy as the brain runs 164 00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:54,620 out of oxygen so first I want to ask you 165 00:06:59,559 --> 00:06:56,930 you know it's been a while since that 166 00:07:01,960 --> 00:06:59,569 paper was published do you still think 167 00:07:04,809 --> 00:07:01,970 that what you saw has anything to do 168 00:07:06,909 --> 00:07:04,819 with near-death experience right so you 169 00:07:09,850 --> 00:07:06,919 know obviously all the patients in our 170 00:07:12,909 --> 00:07:09,860 study passed away so there's really no 171 00:07:15,879 --> 00:07:12,919 way for us to truly know if what these 172 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:15,889 people were experiencing is in fact they 173 00:07:20,170 --> 00:07:17,930 had they survived been disfigured sure 174 00:07:22,270 --> 00:07:20,180 of a near-death experience but what we 175 00:07:24,100 --> 00:07:22,280 did notice which was very striking is 176 00:07:26,770 --> 00:07:24,110 that in all these patients and in this 177 00:07:29,170 --> 00:07:26,780 study we reported on seven patients for 178 00:07:32,790 --> 00:07:29,180 which we had very good documentation but 179 00:07:36,249 --> 00:07:32,800 we've seen these electrical surges of a 180 00:07:40,629 --> 00:07:36,259 EEG activity at the end of life and over 181 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:40,639 52 now over a hundred patients and what 182 00:07:46,749 --> 00:07:43,130 we basically have hypothesized is that 183 00:07:49,300 --> 00:07:46,759 when people pass away something occurs 184 00:07:52,089 --> 00:07:49,310 in their neural structure we have a 185 00:07:54,370 --> 00:07:52,099 hypothesis for wadis maybe happening 186 00:07:57,029 --> 00:07:54,380 that causes this large intensity of 187 00:07:59,529 --> 00:07:57,039 electrical energy and what we basically 188 00:08:01,560 --> 00:07:59,539 hypothesized further and speculate is 189 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:01,570 that if somebody was in the field 190 00:08:06,959 --> 00:08:03,530 someone who was having a heart attack 191 00:08:09,999 --> 00:08:06,969 for example and their heart stopped and 192 00:08:12,189 --> 00:08:10,009 the oxygen to their brain went down and 193 00:08:14,559 --> 00:08:12,199 they had this sort of terminal surge of 194 00:08:17,350 --> 00:08:14,569 energy and then they were resuscitated 195 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:17,360 and brought back it's very likely they 196 00:08:23,529 --> 00:08:20,330 would recall that electrical surge and 197 00:08:25,870 --> 00:08:23,539 if they did recall that surge we 198 00:08:29,350 --> 00:08:25,880 hypothesized to speculate that that 199 00:08:31,689 --> 00:08:29,360 could be what people describe in their 200 00:08:33,339 --> 00:08:31,699 near-death experiences because the one 201 00:08:34,839 --> 00:08:33,349 thing that we have seen rather 202 00:08:37,329 --> 00:08:34,849 consistently when you read the 203 00:08:39,399 --> 00:08:37,339 literature of near-death experiences is 204 00:08:42,670 --> 00:08:39,409 that not everyone has the same industry 205 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:42,680 not everyone has the same experience but 206 00:08:45,010 --> 00:08:44,450 the one thing that they all have in 207 00:08:47,139 --> 00:08:45,020 common 208 00:08:49,510 --> 00:08:47,149 is that the experience is very intense 209 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:49,520 and very vivid and people can usually 210 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:52,730 recall many many years later on with 211 00:08:58,600 --> 00:08:54,170 great detail 212 00:09:00,160 --> 00:08:58,610 what they experienced and so I it would 213 00:09:02,500 --> 00:09:00,170 take something that would be a very 214 00:09:04,509 --> 00:09:02,510 durable electable event of energy for 215 00:09:08,100 --> 00:09:04,519 someone to have that and so which put 216 00:09:11,530 --> 00:09:08,110 some motions to get there and arrived at 217 00:09:12,910 --> 00:09:11,540 batch speculation okay 218 00:09:14,949 --> 00:09:12,920 the event I just wanted to confirm that 219 00:09:16,269 --> 00:09:14,959 and it's interesting that you reference 220 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:16,279 the near-death experience literature 221 00:09:20,439 --> 00:09:18,410 I've had a chance to interview some of 222 00:09:22,750 --> 00:09:20,449 the world's leading near-death 223 00:09:24,009 --> 00:09:22,760 experience researchers and gosh you know 224 00:09:26,050 --> 00:09:24,019 I've went back and talked to some of 225 00:09:28,329 --> 00:09:26,060 about this and I wouldn't find any of 226 00:09:30,519 --> 00:09:28,339 them that would even seriously entertain 227 00:09:32,860 --> 00:09:30,529 that kind of speculation as a matter of 228 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:32,870 fact privately one of them told me and 229 00:09:36,699 --> 00:09:34,250 this is pretty harsh but it said it's 230 00:09:40,210 --> 00:09:36,709 one of the dumbest explanations for 231 00:09:42,550 --> 00:09:40,220 near-death experience yet published so I 232 00:09:44,949 --> 00:09:42,560 guess I was really wondering exactly 233 00:09:47,560 --> 00:09:44,959 where you're coming from exactly what 234 00:09:50,949 --> 00:09:47,570 near-death experience research you've 235 00:09:53,019 --> 00:09:50,959 dug into that makes you feel like the 236 00:09:56,590 --> 00:09:53,029 speculation that you're talking about 237 00:09:59,579 --> 00:09:56,600 would fit the broader research that's 238 00:10:02,800 --> 00:09:59,589 been done into near-death experience I 239 00:10:04,889 --> 00:10:02,810 mean I'm not a researcher in unit 240 00:10:08,650 --> 00:10:04,899 experiences that's not what I primary 241 00:10:10,329 --> 00:10:08,660 scientific interest we are basically at 242 00:10:12,100 --> 00:10:10,339 the bedside taking care of very sick 243 00:10:16,569 --> 00:10:12,110 patients in the intensive care unit and 244 00:10:20,350 --> 00:10:16,579 I don't pretend to have any incredible 245 00:10:23,170 --> 00:10:20,360 insight into what these are or not all 246 00:10:26,410 --> 00:10:23,180 we are saying from our group scientific 247 00:10:30,130 --> 00:10:26,420 standpoint is that we see a very 248 00:10:32,380 --> 00:10:30,140 consistent signature for patients when 249 00:10:34,329 --> 00:10:32,390 they're passing away and we are not the 250 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:34,339 only investigators to report that this 251 00:10:38,620 --> 00:10:35,930 has now been investigated and reported 252 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:38,630 by multiple investigators this is not 253 00:10:43,540 --> 00:10:40,850 artifact this is real electrical 254 00:10:45,819 --> 00:10:43,550 activity it's high frequency gamma wave 255 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:45,829 activity at the minimum it could be 256 00:10:50,650 --> 00:10:48,050 higher frequency than that and the one 257 00:10:53,530 --> 00:10:50,660 thing which is abundantly clear is that 258 00:10:56,680 --> 00:10:53,540 this level of activity is coherent 259 00:10:58,660 --> 00:10:56,690 electrical activity this is not sort of 260 00:11:01,949 --> 00:10:58,670 you know slow theta wave activity this 261 00:11:06,340 --> 00:11:01,959 is not nothing so you know dying brain 262 00:11:07,269 --> 00:11:06,350 very sort of escape rhythm type of stuff 263 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:07,279 so 264 00:11:12,309 --> 00:11:09,410 I don't know what's causing it we've 265 00:11:14,410 --> 00:11:12,319 speculated what might be because and I 266 00:11:16,300 --> 00:11:14,420 don't know if this is a nude experience 267 00:11:18,309 --> 00:11:16,310 or not I'm not saying it is or it isn't 268 00:11:23,549 --> 00:11:18,319 but I do believe that it's plausible 269 00:11:28,150 --> 00:11:23,559 that if someone has a very large 270 00:11:31,509 --> 00:11:28,160 coherent amount of activity and they are 271 00:11:35,319 --> 00:11:31,519 then awoken or awakened they're going to 272 00:11:38,769 --> 00:11:35,329 have a memory of that and that memory 273 00:11:41,619 --> 00:11:38,779 could be what people believe to be is a 274 00:11:43,449 --> 00:11:41,629 near-death experience and the one thing 275 00:11:45,819 --> 00:11:43,459 which we find rather consistent is that 276 00:11:47,980 --> 00:11:45,829 the level of energy associate with this 277 00:11:50,860 --> 00:11:47,990 is very high frequency and it's very 278 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:50,870 intense if you look at the bismallah and 279 00:11:56,139 --> 00:11:52,850 the third line monitors for which these 280 00:11:59,290 --> 00:11:56,149 are measured it pretty much goes to the 281 00:12:01,540 --> 00:11:59,300 top of the scale it goes beyond or very 282 00:12:05,139 --> 00:12:01,550 close to the maximum capacity if the 283 00:12:08,619 --> 00:12:05,149 device can measure so I don't know what 284 00:12:12,999 --> 00:12:08,629 it is but I do think it's plausible that 285 00:12:14,670 --> 00:12:13,009 if someone has this and they recall it 286 00:12:16,809 --> 00:12:14,680 that they would recall a vivid memory 287 00:12:20,860 --> 00:12:16,819 whether that's an ippon experience or 288 00:12:23,199 --> 00:12:20,870 not I don't know right well let's just 289 00:12:24,610 --> 00:12:23,209 push that a little bit further and I 290 00:12:26,980 --> 00:12:24,620 appreciate where you're coming from that 291 00:12:29,139 --> 00:12:26,990 you know near-death experience is a hot 292 00:12:31,809 --> 00:12:29,149 topic something happens at the final 293 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:31,819 stages of life I think it's easy to make 294 00:12:37,090 --> 00:12:34,730 that connection the pushback I hear from 295 00:12:39,759 --> 00:12:37,100 the near-death experience researchers 296 00:12:41,799 --> 00:12:39,769 and why they say wow that just doesn't 297 00:12:44,199 --> 00:12:41,809 really fit and we've been down that path 298 00:12:45,939 --> 00:12:44,209 before as a couple reasons but the main 299 00:12:47,829 --> 00:12:45,949 one is the timing you know the first 300 00:12:50,410 --> 00:12:47,839 thing they'll tell you is that while 301 00:12:53,319 --> 00:12:50,420 near-death experience has certainly been 302 00:12:55,449 --> 00:12:53,329 studied a lot in cardiac arrest patients 303 00:12:58,720 --> 00:12:55,459 because it eliminates a lot of the other 304 00:13:00,970 --> 00:12:58,730 variables it's not the only place where 305 00:13:02,769 --> 00:13:00,980 near-death experiences are reported the 306 00:13:04,210 --> 00:13:02,779 first thing that I heard back from the 307 00:13:06,669 --> 00:13:04,220 near-death experience researchers I 308 00:13:07,629 --> 00:13:06,679 talked to about your work is most people 309 00:13:10,179 --> 00:13:07,639 who report a near-death experience 310 00:13:14,230 --> 00:13:10,189 aren't that bad off they're not in that 311 00:13:16,749 --> 00:13:14,240 much of a medical emergency final stages 312 00:13:17,919 --> 00:13:16,759 kind of situation that you talk to heck 313 00:13:19,419 --> 00:13:17,929 there's even people who jump off the 314 00:13:21,620 --> 00:13:19,429 Golden Gate Bridge and don't have any 315 00:13:23,210 --> 00:13:21,630 real physical trauma going 316 00:13:25,100 --> 00:13:23,220 that have a near-death experience or 317 00:13:27,470 --> 00:13:25,110 people who are in the middle of a plane 318 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:27,480 crash scenario that have a near-death 319 00:13:30,050 --> 00:13:28,050 experience 320 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:30,060 so the literature when you get into 321 00:13:34,910 --> 00:13:32,370 near-death experience goes way beyond 322 00:13:37,310 --> 00:13:34,920 people in this medical situation but 323 00:13:40,370 --> 00:13:37,320 moreover this issue with the EEG becomes 324 00:13:42,110 --> 00:13:40,380 very interesting because we also have 325 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:42,120 people in the near death experience 326 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:44,010 literature case studies published in 327 00:13:48,830 --> 00:13:46,290 places like New England Journal Medicine 328 00:13:50,810 --> 00:13:48,840 all the right places to publish case 329 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:50,820 studies where they've induced cardiac 330 00:13:56,660 --> 00:13:54,210 arrest and they know there's no EEG and 331 00:13:59,510 --> 00:13:56,670 yet there's the report of a near-death 332 00:14:02,600 --> 00:13:59,520 experience right so I guess it really 333 00:14:05,570 --> 00:14:02,610 comes down to your definition on what a 334 00:14:07,460 --> 00:14:05,580 near-death experience is or is it if 335 00:14:10,100 --> 00:14:07,470 you're driving a car and having a Mack 336 00:14:12,230 --> 00:14:10,110 truck nearly come and crush you and you 337 00:14:14,540 --> 00:14:12,240 avoid it and that's a near-death 338 00:14:16,010 --> 00:14:14,550 experience because you nearly died and I 339 00:14:18,140 --> 00:14:16,020 think that it all depends on what 340 00:14:19,790 --> 00:14:18,150 near-death means and what your 341 00:14:21,830 --> 00:14:19,800 definition of near that is I think 342 00:14:23,620 --> 00:14:21,840 that's an important distinction and I 343 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:23,630 think that when we talk about near-death 344 00:14:28,190 --> 00:14:25,970 what we're talking about can very 345 00:14:30,380 --> 00:14:28,200 patients who are undergoing anesthesia 346 00:14:32,810 --> 00:14:30,390 who have very bad events people we're 347 00:14:34,970 --> 00:14:32,820 getting psychoactive medications which 348 00:14:37,220 --> 00:14:34,980 is a part of critical care and a part of 349 00:14:39,620 --> 00:14:37,230 being in the operating room you can all 350 00:14:41,390 --> 00:14:39,630 have near-death experiences and they 351 00:14:43,940 --> 00:14:41,400 could have had very traumatic cases in 352 00:14:45,860 --> 00:14:43,950 which their hearts never stopped and so 353 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:45,870 I think there is going to be enormous 354 00:14:50,810 --> 00:14:47,970 amount of heterogeneity and what a 355 00:14:52,970 --> 00:14:50,820 near-death experience is or isn't and in 356 00:14:54,950 --> 00:14:52,980 those cases I certainly agree that 357 00:14:57,530 --> 00:14:54,960 people can have things that they recall 358 00:15:00,440 --> 00:14:57,540 from the events but it's very hard 359 00:15:03,890 --> 00:15:00,450 because it's very rare for a person to 360 00:15:06,740 --> 00:15:03,900 die or nearly died and then be awoken 361 00:15:08,660 --> 00:15:06,750 within 15-20 minutes and you can say to 362 00:15:11,150 --> 00:15:08,670 them hey do you remember anything 363 00:15:14,810 --> 00:15:11,160 so not the nature of a recovery of a 364 00:15:17,330 --> 00:15:14,820 very severe near-death event so there's 365 00:15:21,710 --> 00:15:17,340 a lot of things that can go on between 366 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:21,720 in events and the actual recall and I 367 00:15:27,910 --> 00:15:24,650 think that it's very hard to ascertain 368 00:15:30,430 --> 00:15:27,920 in any given individual if this 369 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:30,440 electrical spike that we're describing 370 00:15:34,910 --> 00:15:33,210 speaks for a very particular type of 371 00:15:37,220 --> 00:15:34,920 recollection versus 372 00:15:40,100 --> 00:15:37,230 a more generic near-death experience and 373 00:15:44,449 --> 00:15:40,110 I think this is a testable hypothesis in 374 00:15:46,550 --> 00:15:44,459 fact but I do think that it's very hard 375 00:15:48,790 --> 00:15:46,560 because what your definition or one's 376 00:15:51,350 --> 00:15:48,800 definition of the native experience 377 00:15:54,050 --> 00:15:51,360 varies from investigator to investigator 378 00:15:58,639 --> 00:15:54,060 not really not all that much again this 379 00:16:01,129 --> 00:15:58,649 is NDE research 101 everyone nowadays 380 00:16:03,259 --> 00:16:01,139 uses something called the Grayson scale 381 00:16:06,350 --> 00:16:03,269 invented by Bruce grace and it's in a 382 00:16:09,439 --> 00:16:06,360 series of I think 7 or 12 questions and 383 00:16:11,930 --> 00:16:09,449 they rate how deep quote/unquote the 384 00:16:13,340 --> 00:16:11,940 near-death experience is so when we 385 00:16:15,980 --> 00:16:13,350 throw around the term near-death 386 00:16:17,810 --> 00:16:15,990 experience it really has at this point 387 00:16:20,870 --> 00:16:17,820 in the stage of the research a very 388 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:20,880 specific set of features it's not really 389 00:16:24,650 --> 00:16:22,170 all over the board kind of like you're 390 00:16:26,660 --> 00:16:24,660 saying so I'm not really sure that that 391 00:16:28,610 --> 00:16:26,670 there is that much discrepancy in what 392 00:16:30,650 --> 00:16:28,620 is or what isn't a near-death experience 393 00:16:34,819 --> 00:16:30,660 in terms of the near-death experience 394 00:16:36,769 --> 00:16:34,829 literature literature and what the case 395 00:16:38,810 --> 00:16:36,779 definition is rate and I mean the case 396 00:16:41,420 --> 00:16:38,820 definition is that they all agree on 397 00:16:44,269 --> 00:16:41,430 what they're using to describe it what 398 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:44,279 I'm saying is that everyone in our study 399 00:16:49,490 --> 00:16:47,250 died serious they all died 400 00:16:52,790 --> 00:16:49,500 and they all had this electrical spike 401 00:16:56,269 --> 00:16:52,800 and all I all we're suggesting is that 402 00:16:58,310 --> 00:16:56,279 people who survived who have this are 403 00:17:02,210 --> 00:16:58,320 likely to recall whatever that 404 00:17:05,809 --> 00:17:02,220 electrical energy is and that individual 405 00:17:08,990 --> 00:17:05,819 may recall that as an experience or as a 406 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:09,000 memory that occurred as they died or 407 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:11,970 nearly died that's all we're saying as 408 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:14,850 I'm not suggesting that every person who 409 00:17:19,610 --> 00:17:16,890 has a near-death experience has to have 410 00:17:22,100 --> 00:17:19,620 this spike nor am I suggesting that this 411 00:17:24,620 --> 00:17:22,110 flight is the signature for all news 412 00:17:28,490 --> 00:17:24,630 experiences all we're proposing is that 413 00:17:31,430 --> 00:17:28,500 if this is recalled this could form a 414 00:17:34,130 --> 00:17:31,440 very strong memory and so it may 415 00:17:36,260 --> 00:17:34,140 represent a specific subtype of people's 416 00:17:38,120 --> 00:17:36,270 near-death experiences I'm not 417 00:17:40,310 --> 00:17:38,130 suggesting that this is the end-all 418 00:17:44,450 --> 00:17:40,320 be-all we don't have any kind of 419 00:17:45,950 --> 00:17:44,460 evidence to make that determination but 420 00:17:47,740 --> 00:17:45,960 I do think it's very interesting that 421 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:47,750 people have this and 422 00:17:53,590 --> 00:17:49,730 I find further interesting is that 423 00:17:56,590 --> 00:17:53,600 animals when they're killed also have 424 00:17:59,380 --> 00:17:56,600 this electrical spike about 45 seconds 425 00:18:01,630 --> 00:17:59,390 to 60 seconds after death mm-hmm it is a 426 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:01,640 surprising finding and it's an 427 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:03,530 interesting finding it's also 428 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:05,450 interesting to me though how the story 429 00:18:09,450 --> 00:18:07,970 kind of runs way ahead of itself as you 430 00:18:11,140 --> 00:18:09,460 say you know I think you're being very 431 00:18:13,090 --> 00:18:11,150 straightforward and I appreciate you 432 00:18:14,890 --> 00:18:13,100 kind of putting the spikes in the ground 433 00:18:17,230 --> 00:18:14,900 in terms of what you would sign up for 434 00:18:19,210 --> 00:18:17,240 and what you wouldn't the story has kind 435 00:18:20,590 --> 00:18:19,220 of taken on a life of its own and it 436 00:18:22,690 --> 00:18:20,600 seems like this happens over and over 437 00:18:24,970 --> 00:18:22,700 again when near-death experience is 438 00:18:26,890 --> 00:18:24,980 thrown into the mix and we have some 439 00:18:29,020 --> 00:18:26,900 kind of conventional explanation for it 440 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:29,030 we get a lot of traction behind those 441 00:18:33,940 --> 00:18:32,090 ideas even if they haven't been I don't 442 00:18:36,730 --> 00:18:33,950 know research quite as fully as we'd all 443 00:18:39,250 --> 00:18:36,740 like any thoughts on that well I mean I 444 00:18:41,170 --> 00:18:39,260 I've interviewed and spoken to many 445 00:18:42,610 --> 00:18:41,180 people about this and I think it's 446 00:18:45,130 --> 00:18:42,620 dramatically determines of what the 447 00:18:47,020 --> 00:18:45,140 person's predisposition is if I have 448 00:18:49,870 --> 00:18:47,030 this competition with an atheist the 449 00:18:51,820 --> 00:18:49,880 atheist tells me that you have proven 450 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:51,830 that these needed experiences are not 451 00:18:57,100 --> 00:18:54,770 divine intervention and you have given 452 00:18:59,320 --> 00:18:57,110 evidence for the fact that there is no 453 00:19:01,540 --> 00:18:59,330 God and when I speak to very religious 454 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:01,550 people they tell me that I have measured 455 00:19:07,570 --> 00:19:03,770 the soul leaving the body and it's a 456 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:07,580 divine event that we are capturing and 457 00:19:12,580 --> 00:19:09,410 experiencing and being able to observe 458 00:19:15,940 --> 00:19:12,590 and I think that those two assessments 459 00:19:17,890 --> 00:19:15,950 are wildly off-base and you have two 460 00:19:23,700 --> 00:19:17,900 sets of people looking at the exact same 461 00:19:27,790 --> 00:19:23,710 data creating the exact opposite 462 00:19:29,980 --> 00:19:27,800 conclusion and you know all we can say 463 00:19:33,250 --> 00:19:29,990 is that we have an interesting finding 464 00:19:36,970 --> 00:19:33,260 we don't know what it is and what we 465 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:36,980 strongly believe is that that when 466 00:19:43,750 --> 00:19:40,250 people pass away there is little to no 467 00:19:46,300 --> 00:19:43,760 research in this arena as compared to 468 00:19:47,860 --> 00:19:46,310 letting molecular biology we simply 469 00:19:51,100 --> 00:19:47,870 don't study it in a very thoughtful 470 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:51,110 fashion because this is a time where 471 00:19:57,520 --> 00:19:53,410 it's usually reserved for hospice and 472 00:19:59,230 --> 00:19:57,530 Families and comfort care and what we're 473 00:20:00,730 --> 00:19:59,240 suggesting is that there may be 474 00:20:01,190 --> 00:20:00,740 something to be learned at the end of 475 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:01,200 life 476 00:20:04,850 --> 00:20:03,210 they may shine a light on what is 477 00:20:06,980 --> 00:20:04,860 something that's very important to the 478 00:20:08,899 --> 00:20:06,990 stakeholders which is our patients 479 00:20:11,149 --> 00:20:08,909 because our patients care very deeply 480 00:20:15,139 --> 00:20:11,159 about what happens when they die as I 481 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:15,149 would argue most people and what this is 482 00:20:21,259 --> 00:20:17,850 or isn't I don't know but I do know that 483 00:20:24,769 --> 00:20:21,269 the finding is intriguing and it may 484 00:20:26,450 --> 00:20:24,779 explain some patients recollections but 485 00:20:29,779 --> 00:20:26,460 I certainly don't suggest that it 486 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:29,789 explains everyone's and there is a very 487 00:20:37,700 --> 00:20:32,970 wide group of people who have arrived on 488 00:20:40,100 --> 00:20:37,710 a huge post and set of conclusions on a 489 00:20:43,310 --> 00:20:40,110 seven-person case study to think it's 490 00:20:45,529 --> 00:20:43,320 highly premature so our view is that we 491 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:45,539 have an interesting finding and whenever 492 00:20:49,009 --> 00:20:46,730 you have an interesting observation 493 00:20:51,740 --> 00:20:49,019 generally what we do is sign this is 494 00:20:53,539 --> 00:20:51,750 study it in more detail to understand 495 00:20:56,899 --> 00:20:53,549 what it is and what it is and I think 496 00:21:01,129 --> 00:20:56,909 that for the near-death experience 497 00:21:03,049 --> 00:21:01,139 researchers who are you know looking at 498 00:21:04,639 --> 00:21:03,059 these data and saying oh you know 499 00:21:07,820 --> 00:21:04,649 everyone say it's this that or the other 500 00:21:09,740 --> 00:21:07,830 I would say let's study it right but I'm 501 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:09,750 not sure that they're saying this that 502 00:21:14,029 --> 00:21:12,090 or the other they're saying okay let's 503 00:21:16,730 --> 00:21:14,039 take your finding let's take your data 504 00:21:18,799 --> 00:21:16,740 and very logically try and fit it into 505 00:21:20,419 --> 00:21:18,809 the rest of the data that we have and 506 00:21:23,299 --> 00:21:20,429 they're saying you know what this 507 00:21:25,549 --> 00:21:23,309 doesn't really add much to the story 508 00:21:27,529 --> 00:21:25,559 that we already have because we have so 509 00:21:28,909 --> 00:21:27,539 many cases that would contradict the 510 00:21:30,529 --> 00:21:28,919 kind of conclusion that you're coming to 511 00:21:32,539 --> 00:21:30,539 that this is somehow a near-death 512 00:21:33,980 --> 00:21:32,549 experience and the contradiction is that 513 00:21:36,889 --> 00:21:33,990 you know we have too many people that 514 00:21:39,889 --> 00:21:36,899 have this continuous memory of their 515 00:21:43,009 --> 00:21:39,899 entire process of being in the hospital 516 00:21:44,870 --> 00:21:43,019 then going under and then leaving their 517 00:21:46,190 --> 00:21:44,880 body I mean hey not to mention let me 518 00:21:47,690 --> 00:21:46,200 just throw that out there I don't want 519 00:21:49,340 --> 00:21:47,700 to get into too many of the details of 520 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:49,350 the near-death experience research 521 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:51,090 because I know that's not your thing but 522 00:21:56,450 --> 00:21:54,090 the most profound part of the near-death 523 00:21:59,210 --> 00:21:56,460 experience research is this out-of-body 524 00:22:01,310 --> 00:21:59,220 experience this ability to see things 525 00:22:03,139 --> 00:22:01,320 from a vantage point outside their body 526 00:22:05,360 --> 00:22:03,149 to hear things from a vantage point 527 00:22:08,149 --> 00:22:05,370 outside of their body and of course this 528 00:22:09,830 --> 00:22:08,159 has been reported repeatedly in case 529 00:22:11,549 --> 00:22:09,840 studies and they've tried to replicate 530 00:22:15,610 --> 00:22:11,559 it in other work but 531 00:22:18,340 --> 00:22:15,620 there's no way to connect the OBE part 532 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:18,350 of the of the near-death experience to 533 00:22:22,990 --> 00:22:20,210 your data but there's also no way to 534 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:23,000 connect that like I said the EEG data 535 00:22:28,060 --> 00:22:26,090 that they have to your research so I 536 00:22:29,529 --> 00:22:28,070 don't think it's it's a lot of people 537 00:22:31,570 --> 00:22:29,539 coming to conclusions they're just 538 00:22:33,549 --> 00:22:31,580 saying like they've said in the past 539 00:22:35,799 --> 00:22:33,559 when people have come up with a said oh 540 00:22:37,269 --> 00:22:35,809 it's probably a lack of oxygen it's 541 00:22:39,039 --> 00:22:37,279 probably fear of death and then they've 542 00:22:40,629 --> 00:22:39,049 gone and done the work and said you know 543 00:22:42,340 --> 00:22:40,639 that doesn't really fit and that's what 544 00:22:43,899 --> 00:22:42,350 I hear I'm saying again you know what 545 00:22:46,049 --> 00:22:43,909 this is an interesting surprising 546 00:22:48,490 --> 00:22:46,059 finding but it doesn't really add much 547 00:22:51,340 --> 00:22:48,500 to the research we've already done ended 548 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:51,350 near-death experience okay so next I 549 00:22:57,009 --> 00:22:53,450 want to play for you the second clip I 550 00:22:59,019 --> 00:22:57,019 was talking about from episode 103 of 551 00:23:02,259 --> 00:22:59,029 skeptic oh and my interview with Jeff 552 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:02,269 wise this interview came about after a 553 00:23:08,940 --> 00:23:05,450 similar kind of flurry of activity in 554 00:23:12,220 --> 00:23:08,950 the science media about a study came out 555 00:23:15,629 --> 00:23:12,230 suggesting a link between the carbon 556 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:15,639 dioxide level of blood and near-death 557 00:23:22,180 --> 00:23:19,010 experiences now this was exceptionally 558 00:23:25,389 --> 00:23:22,190 sloppy reporting not on the part of mr. 559 00:23:26,710 --> 00:23:25,399 wise because as you'll hear he didn't 560 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:26,720 know any better he was just kind of 561 00:23:30,009 --> 00:23:28,490 following the crowd and following the 562 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:30,019 people that he thought he should trust 563 00:23:34,060 --> 00:23:31,850 the scientist who he thought whatever 564 00:23:36,789 --> 00:23:34,070 reasonable handle on this but the reason 565 00:23:39,490 --> 00:23:36,799 it was so egregious was there is so much 566 00:23:42,779 --> 00:23:39,500 published work among the near-death 567 00:23:45,250 --> 00:23:42,789 experience researchers that conclusively 568 00:23:48,070 --> 00:23:45,260 contradicted this idea that near-death 569 00:23:50,049 --> 00:23:48,080 experience is related to co2 levels in 570 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:50,059 the blood you gotta know this is one of 571 00:23:53,500 --> 00:23:52,250 the first things that they look at so 572 00:23:56,259 --> 00:23:53,510 you can go back and look at research 573 00:23:58,659 --> 00:23:56,269 published ten I think even 15 years ago 574 00:24:00,669 --> 00:23:58,669 that conclusively shows hey we looked 575 00:24:03,340 --> 00:24:00,679 for you know lack of oxygen in the blood 576 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:03,350 that's not it and they repeated this 577 00:24:07,659 --> 00:24:05,570 over and over and over again yet it's an 578 00:24:10,060 --> 00:24:07,669 explanation that was kind of backdoored 579 00:24:12,610 --> 00:24:10,070 into this study and then trumpeted by 580 00:24:14,950 --> 00:24:12,620 the science media in fact if you listen 581 00:24:16,330 --> 00:24:14,960 to some folks notably I was just 582 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:16,340 listening to interview the other day 583 00:24:21,009 --> 00:24:19,010 with Professor Chris French who many 584 00:24:22,990 --> 00:24:21,019 still think of as this open-minded 585 00:24:24,740 --> 00:24:23,000 skeptic but who is really just this 586 00:24:27,230 --> 00:24:24,750 ultra somewhat me 587 00:24:28,790 --> 00:24:27,240 a savvy skeptic in the UK and he was 588 00:24:30,950 --> 00:24:28,800 throwing this out there again you know 589 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:30,960 co2 levels in the blood he was throwing 590 00:24:35,060 --> 00:24:33,330 out the the Steve novella kind of thing 591 00:24:37,370 --> 00:24:35,070 well it it's kind of a lot of 592 00:24:39,860 --> 00:24:37,380 combination of different things and one 593 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:39,870 of them is co2 levels in the blood never 594 00:24:46,100 --> 00:24:42,810 mind that this smorgasbord approach is 595 00:24:48,500 --> 00:24:46,110 exactly the opposite of a good medical 596 00:24:51,140 --> 00:24:48,510 explanation for a phenomena that's been 597 00:24:54,290 --> 00:24:51,150 reported across a wide variety of 598 00:24:56,270 --> 00:24:54,300 conditions but maybe i'm sidetracking us 599 00:24:59,390 --> 00:24:56,280 a little bit too much let's hear from 600 00:25:02,210 --> 00:24:59,400 Jeff wise as to why he felt compelled to 601 00:25:05,660 --> 00:25:02,220 publish his story linking near-death 602 00:25:07,430 --> 00:25:05,670 experience to co2 levels that's 603 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:07,440 fascinating and that kind of ties into 604 00:25:11,120 --> 00:25:09,570 what I wanted to talk about in this 605 00:25:12,740 --> 00:25:11,130 research if you're right on target and I 606 00:25:15,980 --> 00:25:12,750 thought it was so interesting because 607 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:15,990 the one this nde research was widely 608 00:25:20,780 --> 00:25:18,810 reported and I'm glad that that you 609 00:25:22,580 --> 00:25:20,790 reported on it in particular with your 610 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:22,590 background and with the book extreme 611 00:25:28,100 --> 00:25:24,930 fear there's some interesting tie-ins 612 00:25:29,750 --> 00:25:28,110 but here's the real problem I have with 613 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:29,760 it is that all those things you're 614 00:25:34,190 --> 00:25:32,250 talking about are great and wonderful 615 00:25:35,930 --> 00:25:34,200 they just don't relate to near-death 616 00:25:37,820 --> 00:25:35,940 experience I mean there's several 617 00:25:40,790 --> 00:25:37,830 problems with this research I mean first 618 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:40,800 of all it's it's relatively small it's a 619 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:42,810 small little study a graphic correlation 620 00:25:47,090 --> 00:25:45,210 isn't that strong contradicts earlier 621 00:25:49,490 --> 00:25:47,100 research that looked at co2 in the blood 622 00:25:52,490 --> 00:25:49,500 okay but here's the real kicker and it's 623 00:25:54,590 --> 00:25:52,500 what relates to again the work that 624 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:54,600 you've done and both in your personal 625 00:25:58,730 --> 00:25:56,490 experience and adventure travel and 626 00:26:01,220 --> 00:25:58,740 about your book right and that's that 627 00:26:03,370 --> 00:26:01,230 the media has this perception that the 628 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:03,380 near-death experience is about 629 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:05,730 hallucination right it's about all these 630 00:26:11,330 --> 00:26:08,010 experiences are all these symptoms that 631 00:26:12,620 --> 00:26:11,340 are associated with lack of oxygen in 632 00:26:14,150 --> 00:26:12,630 the blood which is what this 633 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:14,160 what does which is what this research is 634 00:26:18,890 --> 00:26:16,770 really about the elevated co2 levels are 635 00:26:20,870 --> 00:26:18,900 really a byproduct of not getting enough 636 00:26:23,180 --> 00:26:20,880 oxygen in the blood as you point out 637 00:26:25,220 --> 00:26:23,190 quite correctly in your blog well if you 638 00:26:27,470 --> 00:26:25,230 look at near-death experience research 639 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:27,480 which is well established now for 20 640 00:26:32,060 --> 00:26:29,730 years right what we find is exactly the 641 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:32,070 opposite people who have a near-death 642 00:26:38,570 --> 00:26:35,490 experience have an increased level of 643 00:26:40,250 --> 00:26:38,580 lucidity an increased level of awareness 644 00:26:41,889 --> 00:26:40,260 you know the most recent research that 645 00:26:44,930 --> 00:26:41,899 we reported on here were they 646 00:26:48,649 --> 00:26:44,940 interviewed extensively a thousand 647 00:26:50,180 --> 00:26:48,659 near-death experiencers 76% of them said 648 00:26:53,539 --> 00:26:50,190 that their experience during the 649 00:26:56,029 --> 00:26:53,549 near-death experience was more conscious 650 00:26:57,740 --> 00:26:56,039 than their everyday life right and the 651 00:27:00,169 --> 00:26:57,750 data that they report is not 652 00:27:01,940 --> 00:27:00,179 hallucinatory at all ninety-eight 653 00:27:04,130 --> 00:27:01,950 percent of the data that they report is 654 00:27:06,620 --> 00:27:04,140 realistic and real if you have a dream 655 00:27:08,330 --> 00:27:06,630 and you see you know you're in a car and 656 00:27:10,490 --> 00:27:08,340 then suddenly the car turns into a lion 657 00:27:12,889 --> 00:27:10,500 or yeah and it's you know these are 658 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:12,899 hallucinations don't occur in the 659 00:27:17,870 --> 00:27:15,570 near-death experience so I mean I sense 660 00:27:22,100 --> 00:27:17,880 that you're is an issue here that's 661 00:27:23,779 --> 00:27:22,110 bothering you which is that my report 662 00:27:28,060 --> 00:27:23,789 and many of the reports in the media 663 00:27:31,100 --> 00:27:28,070 took an essentially materialistic view 664 00:27:34,039 --> 00:27:31,110 although all the reports in the media so 665 00:27:36,830 --> 00:27:34,049 and it wasn't that hard to really fun I 666 00:27:38,690 --> 00:27:36,840 mean if you look at one step beyond or 667 00:27:40,250 --> 00:27:38,700 that the first step of good reporting is 668 00:27:42,049 --> 00:27:40,260 you know what are the experts in the 669 00:27:44,870 --> 00:27:42,059 field say hey the the near-death 670 00:27:47,060 --> 00:27:44,880 experience research experts the people 671 00:27:49,730 --> 00:27:47,070 like Bruce Grayson at the University of 672 00:27:51,110 --> 00:27:49,740 Virginia or dr. Jeffery long at the 673 00:27:53,690 --> 00:27:51,120 near-death experience Research 674 00:27:55,639 --> 00:27:53,700 Foundation they were quick to kind of 675 00:27:56,930 --> 00:27:55,649 deal with this and they did it in a nice 676 00:27:59,180 --> 00:27:56,940 way but they said there's there's 677 00:28:01,909 --> 00:27:59,190 nothing here that contradicts earlier 678 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:01,919 studies it's very small and the main 679 00:28:06,950 --> 00:28:04,010 point is we've already looked at 680 00:28:08,539 --> 00:28:06,960 cerebral epoxy which is what this is all 681 00:28:10,850 --> 00:28:08,549 about okay and there isn't anything 682 00:28:12,769 --> 00:28:10,860 there right this thing gets this thing 683 00:28:15,590 --> 00:28:12,779 just explodes in the media because it 684 00:28:17,509 --> 00:28:15,600 taps into I think what a lot of folks 685 00:28:19,370 --> 00:28:17,519 want to believe which is that our 686 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:19,380 consciousness is totally tied to our 687 00:28:22,970 --> 00:28:21,570 brain and it's totally tied to fear and 688 00:28:24,620 --> 00:28:22,980 it's which is the other thing this is 689 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:24,630 tapping into is that it's a fear of 690 00:28:28,940 --> 00:28:26,490 death thing that's totally been debunked 691 00:28:31,460 --> 00:28:28,950 and refuted but that you know persists 692 00:28:35,870 --> 00:28:31,470 right well you know there's a there's a 693 00:28:37,730 --> 00:28:35,880 huge I mean I see I I see that your 694 00:28:42,220 --> 00:28:37,740 trouble with this and my and with my 695 00:28:45,470 --> 00:28:42,230 reporting is really has to do with the 696 00:28:48,220 --> 00:28:45,480 interface between two kind of 697 00:28:51,049 --> 00:28:48,230 conflicting worldviews on the one hand 698 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:51,059 the midst and you stop me if I'm if I'm 699 00:28:54,530 --> 00:28:52,530 completely off base here but 700 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:54,540 on the one hand you've got the view of 701 00:29:01,460 --> 00:28:56,610 the human spirit as a kind of an 702 00:29:06,380 --> 00:29:01,470 essential thing that is sort of not 703 00:29:09,500 --> 00:29:06,390 rooted in an underlying physical 704 00:29:11,210 --> 00:29:09,510 mechanism that can be explained in 705 00:29:14,750 --> 00:29:11,220 strictly material terms on the other 706 00:29:17,350 --> 00:29:14,760 hand you have this kind of you know I 707 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:17,360 don't want to say post enlightenment but 708 00:29:21,020 --> 00:29:19,410 well why not what's called post leymah 709 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:21,030 this idea that like the world can be 710 00:29:28,010 --> 00:29:24,690 kind of understood a you know as a 711 00:29:31,700 --> 00:29:28,020 system of interacting particles and 712 00:29:34,610 --> 00:29:31,710 forces and that you know so the 713 00:29:37,970 --> 00:29:34,620 psychology particularly in the last I 714 00:29:39,790 --> 00:29:37,980 don't know 20 or 30 years you know post 715 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:39,800 you know since the downfall of Freud 716 00:29:49,100 --> 00:29:44,450 essentially has been an attempt to find 717 00:29:52,910 --> 00:29:49,110 mechanical corollaries to every aspect 718 00:29:55,100 --> 00:29:52,920 of human consciousness and and so I will 719 00:29:58,820 --> 00:29:55,110 plead guilty I mean I essentially you 720 00:30:01,220 --> 00:29:58,830 and I are coming at this issue from from 721 00:30:03,290 --> 00:30:01,230 different camps I think whereas I 722 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:03,300 because I'm perceiving that you are 723 00:30:09,380 --> 00:30:06,330 maybe someone in humans soul is an 724 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:09,390 immortal essence I like to take all that 725 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:11,970 stuff out of it and because I think that 726 00:30:17,690 --> 00:30:14,250 you know the philosophical implications 727 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:17,700 and the lack of kind of a theoretical 728 00:30:23,570 --> 00:30:20,730 basis for how consciousness could 729 00:30:26,450 --> 00:30:23,580 survive bodily death right is wide open 730 00:30:28,460 --> 00:30:26,460 and opens up a million questions but I 731 00:30:31,070 --> 00:30:28,470 think the starting point has to be with 732 00:30:33,110 --> 00:30:31,080 how do we do good science and how do we 733 00:30:36,890 --> 00:30:33,120 do good science reporting and I'm not 734 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:36,900 trying to call you out here because you 735 00:30:41,090 --> 00:30:38,730 write a blog every day for Psychology 736 00:30:42,830 --> 00:30:41,100 Today write it this obviously tapped 737 00:30:45,830 --> 00:30:42,840 into a lot of the topics that you're 738 00:30:47,630 --> 00:30:45,840 interested in and you didn't handle it 739 00:30:50,150 --> 00:30:47,640 you handle it better than most of the 740 00:30:52,790 --> 00:30:50,160 people that I've read about right but 741 00:30:55,370 --> 00:30:52,800 there's this huge disconnect here 742 00:30:57,500 --> 00:30:55,380 between the science media and to a 743 00:30:59,300 --> 00:30:57,510 certain extent the general population 744 00:31:02,300 --> 00:30:59,310 right in terms of just the published 745 00:31:05,210 --> 00:31:02,310 data okay yet any beliefs that I have or 746 00:31:06,470 --> 00:31:05,220 in fact just the published data like I 747 00:31:08,540 --> 00:31:06,480 just told you says that 748 00:31:11,180 --> 00:31:08,550 near death experiences one our non 749 00:31:12,770 --> 00:31:11,190 hallucinatory okay and they're always 750 00:31:16,100 --> 00:31:12,780 perceived as being closer and there's 751 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:16,110 this link that's made and it is so 752 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:19,050 pronounced that I just have to wonder if 753 00:31:25,970 --> 00:31:22,170 there isn't something more going on just 754 00:31:28,850 --> 00:31:25,980 in terms of the need for our society to 755 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:28,860 reinforce and kind of prop up this 756 00:31:33,590 --> 00:31:31,770 hardline materialism even when the data 757 00:31:35,180 --> 00:31:33,600 doesn't support it well I don't know is 758 00:31:38,150 --> 00:31:35,190 our society hardline materialistic I 759 00:31:39,830 --> 00:31:38,160 mean I our science is right because 760 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:39,840 that's the disconnect right the general 761 00:31:44,210 --> 00:31:41,850 population hears about near-death 762 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:44,220 experience and on Oprah or wherever and 763 00:31:47,900 --> 00:31:45,690 they're like wow you know that's really 764 00:31:50,450 --> 00:31:47,910 cool that really relates I know my uncle 765 00:31:52,940 --> 00:31:50,460 did that but when they turn to science 766 00:31:54,770 --> 00:31:52,950 right what they get is just the opposite 767 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:54,780 yeah no no no no right around the corner 768 00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:55,530 oh here it is 769 00:31:59,240 --> 00:31:56,970 this will probably explain it just let 770 00:32:01,370 --> 00:31:59,250 it let it play itself out here it is you 771 00:32:02,390 --> 00:32:01,380 know and it's just not true and this 772 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:02,400 idea that a scientific theory is 773 00:32:09,460 --> 00:32:05,850 something that you know tries to 774 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:09,470 increase our understanding by proposing 775 00:32:14,500 --> 00:32:11,850 you know if we're making a prediction by 776 00:32:17,810 --> 00:32:14,510 saying okay well we're going to say that 777 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:17,820 you know the earth is orbits around the 778 00:32:22,010 --> 00:32:19,290 Sun therefore we would expect to see 779 00:32:24,290 --> 00:32:22,020 this moat this motion of the planets or 780 00:32:25,670 --> 00:32:24,300 something like that what's really I 781 00:32:28,130 --> 00:32:25,680 think the thing that's often overlooked 782 00:32:31,550 --> 00:32:28,140 is that a theory requires a mechanism 783 00:32:33,890 --> 00:32:31,560 and this is why Freud ultimately I think 784 00:32:35,810 --> 00:32:33,900 was cast aside because Freud had a lot 785 00:32:37,310 --> 00:32:35,820 of interesting ideas and suppositions 786 00:32:39,620 --> 00:32:37,320 about how the brain worked but he never 787 00:32:41,810 --> 00:32:39,630 offered any mechanisms and so we're 788 00:32:43,250 --> 00:32:41,820 entering an age and I think what you're 789 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:43,260 saying is true is that more and more 790 00:32:47,270 --> 00:32:44,850 you're seeing a materialistic 791 00:32:50,300 --> 00:32:47,280 mechanistic view of human psychology 792 00:32:51,650 --> 00:32:50,310 coming to the fore which is very much 793 00:32:54,950 --> 00:32:51,660 out of sync I think with the popular 794 00:32:56,690 --> 00:32:54,960 culture but it's not a sync with - it's 795 00:32:58,940 --> 00:32:56,700 not a sync with popular physics 796 00:33:01,370 --> 00:32:58,950 I mean quantum physics which is what 797 00:33:04,100 --> 00:33:01,380 runs your TV and your GPS system and all 798 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:04,110 that the they they don't even have any 799 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:05,970 kind of sense of materialism I mean it's 800 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:08,730 so long gone from that that it doesn't 801 00:33:13,460 --> 00:33:10,890 but that's a whole other top yeah as is 802 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:13,470 Freud which I would have to interject 803 00:33:17,330 --> 00:33:15,450 this kind of a hot button for me I mean 804 00:33:19,340 --> 00:33:17,340 really I think we moved away from Freud 805 00:33:20,210 --> 00:33:19,350 because he was completely discredited as 806 00:33:23,060 --> 00:33:20,220 a fraud I mean 807 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:23,070 he published fraudulent research for 808 00:33:28,399 --> 00:33:26,010 patients that he never really saw and if 809 00:33:31,250 --> 00:33:28,409 that work was done today we wouldn't 810 00:33:33,799 --> 00:33:31,260 even be so delicate and parsing you know 811 00:33:36,169 --> 00:33:33,809 why and how you know his theories might 812 00:33:37,730 --> 00:33:36,179 not hold up we just say he's a frog we 813 00:33:39,770 --> 00:33:37,740 shouldn't follow it we shouldn't take 814 00:33:41,210 --> 00:33:39,780 seriously anything he said you know I 815 00:33:42,770 --> 00:33:41,220 recently ran across a statement by 816 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:42,780 somebody who was writing about science 817 00:33:47,380 --> 00:33:44,610 and said you know we need to keep 818 00:33:49,690 --> 00:33:47,390 politics out of science and that that 819 00:33:53,690 --> 00:33:49,700 starting me is funny because to me 820 00:33:56,510 --> 00:33:53,700 science in a way is politics you an idea 821 00:33:58,520 --> 00:33:56,520 doesn't become accepted because on its 822 00:34:01,880 --> 00:33:58,530 own merit it becomes accepted because 823 00:34:03,230 --> 00:34:01,890 people form consensus about it I think 824 00:34:05,140 --> 00:34:03,240 what you're talking about here with the 825 00:34:09,700 --> 00:34:05,150 regarding to near-death experiences is 826 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:09,710 that you feel that on a scientific forum 827 00:34:15,260 --> 00:34:13,290 your your view of it is in the minority 828 00:34:17,210 --> 00:34:15,270 and that you're not getting a fair shake 829 00:34:22,369 --> 00:34:17,220 you feel like you're your research is 830 00:34:24,829 --> 00:34:22,379 not given its due and you know in a way 831 00:34:26,599 --> 00:34:24,839 it's just like let me fine tune that 832 00:34:28,159 --> 00:34:26,609 there can I appreciate you two playing 833 00:34:30,139 --> 00:34:28,169 this out for me because I realize you 834 00:34:32,210 --> 00:34:30,149 know this is not exactly where were you 835 00:34:34,609 --> 00:34:32,220 coming from or where you've gone in it a 836 00:34:37,250 --> 00:34:34,619 couple episodes back I interviewed dr. 837 00:34:38,780 --> 00:34:37,260 Jeff long the guy who published the most 838 00:34:41,389 --> 00:34:38,790 comprehensive near-death experience 839 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:41,399 research to date hey his his book shot 840 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:43,050 to the New York Times bestseller list 841 00:34:47,659 --> 00:34:45,570 within eight days of publication so we 842 00:34:49,550 --> 00:34:47,669 can't say that there's this massive 843 00:34:52,310 --> 00:34:49,560 conspiracy to hold back this information 844 00:34:55,310 --> 00:34:52,320 now it's out there right when I notice 845 00:34:57,260 --> 00:34:55,320 and what I was trying to just dialogue 846 00:34:59,210 --> 00:34:57,270 with you a little bit about is that when 847 00:35:02,450 --> 00:34:59,220 we turn to science and we turn to 848 00:35:05,750 --> 00:35:02,460 science journalism there's a different 849 00:35:08,660 --> 00:35:05,760 code and the code is applied with this 850 00:35:11,810 --> 00:35:08,670 invisible hand and that is that you're 851 00:35:14,900 --> 00:35:11,820 gonna stick to this line and you're not 852 00:35:17,930 --> 00:35:14,910 going to venture out and say these other 853 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:17,940 things that do point to all those 854 00:35:21,170 --> 00:35:19,770 spiritual aspects and all that but 855 00:35:23,720 --> 00:35:21,180 you're not even going to go there 856 00:35:26,720 --> 00:35:23,730 because you're going to be viewed as 857 00:35:28,820 --> 00:35:26,730 being unscientific and it's such a 858 00:35:30,740 --> 00:35:28,830 contradiction because as we as I pointed 859 00:35:32,089 --> 00:35:30,750 out in this case the science really 860 00:35:34,130 --> 00:35:32,099 points the other direction 861 00:35:34,490 --> 00:35:34,140 you know III that's not what it feels 862 00:35:36,860 --> 00:35:34,500 like from 863 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:36,870 my perspective I mean to me it feels 864 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:40,770 like look I I near-death experience is 865 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:42,570 something that I I'm interested in as I 866 00:35:45,830 --> 00:35:43,530 started to say earlier you know I've 867 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:45,840 been gathering string on various 868 00:35:51,980 --> 00:35:50,010 phenomena related to mortal danger and 869 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:51,990 it's one you know I put in my blog like 870 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:54,090 I've never experienced my life flashing 871 00:35:58,820 --> 00:35:55,770 in front of me and I'm not really even 872 00:36:00,320 --> 00:35:58,830 sure what it's like I know is it like 873 00:36:02,930 --> 00:36:00,330 watching a movie is it like watching a 874 00:36:04,670 --> 00:36:02,940 slide show but at any rate it's 875 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:04,680 interesting to me but I've only 876 00:36:08,300 --> 00:36:06,450 tangentially touched on it so basically 877 00:36:10,790 --> 00:36:08,310 you're talking to a guy who ran across 878 00:36:12,890 --> 00:36:10,800 this study tried to tie it into what he 879 00:36:16,010 --> 00:36:12,900 already knew about carbon dioxide levels 880 00:36:17,990 --> 00:36:16,020 in the blood and panic and so forth so I 881 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:18,000 don't know this other research that 882 00:36:25,460 --> 00:36:20,610 you're talking about but can you mention 883 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:25,470 these guys who claim that you know I 884 00:36:29,930 --> 00:36:27,810 guess they've found evidence that you 885 00:36:32,300 --> 00:36:29,940 know that near-death experiences could 886 00:36:35,660 --> 00:36:32,310 not be explained through materialistic 887 00:36:38,540 --> 00:36:35,670 explanations and so forth it's not that 888 00:36:41,540 --> 00:36:38,550 I'm afraid to look into it but it 889 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:41,550 doesn't really fit into my schema for 890 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:44,010 how I basically have come to conclude 891 00:36:47,810 --> 00:36:45,810 the world works so it's not it's not 892 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:47,820 fear so much as kind of it doesn't 893 00:36:56,330 --> 00:36:53,010 really mesh into how I believe the world 894 00:36:57,440 --> 00:36:56,340 fundamentally works and I think that's 895 00:37:00,910 --> 00:36:57,450 and I so I think that's really the 896 00:37:03,980 --> 00:37:00,920 problem if you're if you're trying to 897 00:37:07,250 --> 00:37:03,990 propose a theory or a view of a 898 00:37:12,110 --> 00:37:07,260 phenomenon that is radically at odds 899 00:37:15,980 --> 00:37:12,120 with how listening mainstream science 900 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:15,990 views the operation of the world you 901 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:17,490 know not to say it's impossible I mean 902 00:37:21,740 --> 00:37:19,770 that's how real profound revolutions 903 00:37:23,090 --> 00:37:21,750 take place hold on Jeff because I think 904 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:23,100 you were going one direction where I'd 905 00:37:28,100 --> 00:37:25,290 completely agree with you and that is 906 00:37:32,780 --> 00:37:28,110 that when we propose things in science 907 00:37:35,030 --> 00:37:32,790 that go against our observed world our 908 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:35,040 five senses I think it makes us 909 00:37:38,180 --> 00:37:36,570 uncomfortable and I think that's what 910 00:37:40,430 --> 00:37:38,190 you're alluding to at the same time 911 00:37:42,140 --> 00:37:40,440 that's the challenge of the of the times 912 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:42,150 we live in and the challenge of the 913 00:37:47,500 --> 00:37:44,690 science reporter is virtually all 914 00:37:49,810 --> 00:37:47,510 science at this point go 915 00:37:52,180 --> 00:37:49,820 beyond what we experienced in the world 916 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:52,190 everything that has everything since 917 00:37:58,870 --> 00:37:55,330 Einstein yeah contradicts our 918 00:38:01,690 --> 00:37:58,880 experiential existence right so the 919 00:38:04,240 --> 00:38:01,700 whole I still don't understand how time 920 00:38:07,450 --> 00:38:04,250 it can be nonlinear you know I mean 921 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:07,460 tonight to me is linear yesterday today 922 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:09,530 and there's tomorrow but I have to 923 00:38:13,510 --> 00:38:11,930 accept that theoretically you know time 924 00:38:15,220 --> 00:38:13,520 is not linear and that time and space 925 00:38:17,140 --> 00:38:15,230 have this relationship that I don't 926 00:38:19,450 --> 00:38:17,150 understand the same is true with 927 00:38:21,580 --> 00:38:19,460 consciousness the data is in it's clear 928 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:21,590 it's unambiguous in some way that we 929 00:38:25,420 --> 00:38:23,570 don't understand because we don't really 930 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:25,430 even understand consciousness we don't 931 00:38:29,020 --> 00:38:28,010 understand it at all yeah but in some 932 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:29,030 way we can understand consciousness 933 00:38:34,210 --> 00:38:31,130 survives death uh-oh 934 00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:34,220 I can I can say I don't understand that 935 00:38:39,010 --> 00:38:36,650 I don't know that but I can look at the 936 00:38:41,170 --> 00:38:39,020 data scientifically and say yep that's 937 00:38:42,940 --> 00:38:41,180 what the data says I think that that's 938 00:38:45,010 --> 00:38:42,950 perhaps where I would part ways with you 939 00:38:47,230 --> 00:38:45,020 is that the data doesn't say that I mean 940 00:38:48,970 --> 00:38:47,240 I don't I know that your your listeners 941 00:38:52,810 --> 00:38:48,980 are probably very well acquainted with 942 00:38:54,460 --> 00:38:52,820 the data but so I don't want to like 943 00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:54,470 discuss whether the data is legit or not 944 00:38:58,870 --> 00:38:56,930 but to sort of explain you know from my 945 00:39:00,040 --> 00:38:58,880 point of view and I think you wanted to 946 00:39:02,620 --> 00:39:00,050 talk to me to sort of talk to somebody 947 00:39:05,470 --> 00:39:02,630 who is on the other side of this debate 948 00:39:07,180 --> 00:39:05,480 and and kind of get a sense of why well 949 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:07,190 I do that all the time I do that all the 950 00:39:10,240 --> 00:39:08,570 time I talk to all the research was to 951 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:10,250 run the other side of it's okay I I 952 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:12,050 appreciate everything you said already 953 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:14,810 what I really wanted to tap into is as a 954 00:39:17,950 --> 00:39:16,850 science reporter how you deal with it 955 00:39:19,930 --> 00:39:17,960 and you've done a fair job 956 00:39:22,810 --> 00:39:19,940 I hear you're saying it doesn't fit with 957 00:39:25,450 --> 00:39:22,820 your worldview and it and therefore the 958 00:39:28,090 --> 00:39:25,460 data would be a huge leap you can't dig 959 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:28,100 into every topic that you come across so 960 00:39:33,850 --> 00:39:30,170 you basically have to stick with what's 961 00:39:34,270 --> 00:39:33,860 the kind of a commonly accepted view of 962 00:39:35,860 --> 00:39:34,280 things 963 00:39:38,230 --> 00:39:35,870 now what's commonly accepted but what's 964 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:38,240 accepted by me you know the when we 965 00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:40,610 approach the world it's a very 966 00:39:43,750 --> 00:39:42,890 interesting question to me why we find 967 00:39:45,460 --> 00:39:43,760 something interesting 968 00:39:48,100 --> 00:39:45,470 we're filled with you know of all the 969 00:39:50,710 --> 00:39:48,110 things that we could you know look at 970 00:39:53,620 --> 00:39:50,720 turn our attention to listen to think 971 00:39:58,630 --> 00:39:53,630 about we selectively narrow down to a 972 00:40:00,130 --> 00:39:58,640 very small subset and I you know I think 973 00:40:01,300 --> 00:40:00,140 the answer to that question is that 974 00:40:03,490 --> 00:40:01,310 we're interested in things 975 00:40:04,630 --> 00:40:03,500 that makes sense in the context of 976 00:40:08,590 --> 00:40:04,640 everything else that we know but that's 977 00:40:09,790 --> 00:40:08,600 novel it's new so it has to so things 978 00:40:11,500 --> 00:40:09,800 that are boring than we see every day we 979 00:40:13,300 --> 00:40:11,510 don't we're not interested and things 980 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:13,310 that completely don't make any sense or 981 00:40:17,950 --> 00:40:15,410 we can't possibly have to completely 982 00:40:19,180 --> 00:40:17,960 deconstruct our entire worldview in 983 00:40:20,410 --> 00:40:19,190 order to incorporate them those things 984 00:40:23,170 --> 00:40:20,420 also aren't anything I think you're 985 00:40:24,790 --> 00:40:23,180 right okay there you have it a look back 986 00:40:27,610 --> 00:40:24,800 on a couple of interviews that I think 987 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:27,620 perhaps shed some new light on current 988 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:29,330 research and of course the way science 989 00:40:33,910 --> 00:40:30,890 is dealing with this research on 990 00:40:35,950 --> 00:40:33,920 near-death experience so that is I guess 991 00:40:38,230 --> 00:40:35,960 the question that I would tea up from 992 00:40:39,940 --> 00:40:38,240 this interview we've just taken a look 993 00:40:41,950 --> 00:40:39,950 back on a couple of interviews that are 994 00:40:45,790 --> 00:40:41,960 at least two years old and here we are 995 00:40:49,180 --> 00:40:45,800 in 2013 and we can point to exactly the 996 00:40:51,820 --> 00:40:49,190 same thing happening in terms of even 997 00:40:53,860 --> 00:40:51,830 research being recycled as I think it is 998 00:40:56,770 --> 00:40:53,870 and in terms of the University of 999 00:40:59,680 --> 00:40:56,780 Michigan study and certainly the same 1000 00:41:02,200 --> 00:40:59,690 pattern happening in the media in terms 1001 00:41:04,270 --> 00:41:02,210 of blowing up any story that offers a 1002 00:41:06,790 --> 00:41:04,280 conventional explanation for near-death 1003 00:41:08,710 --> 00:41:06,800 experience so the question is has 1004 00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:08,720 science moved towards accepting 1005 00:41:14,140 --> 00:41:12,170 near-death experience science do you see 1006 00:41:16,890 --> 00:41:14,150 any real movement in this direction or 1007 00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:16,900 is it just the same old story of 1008 00:41:21,940 --> 00:41:19,130 acceptance among the quote unquote 1009 00:41:25,060 --> 00:41:21,950 spiritual crowd but no real movement 1010 00:41:26,830 --> 00:41:25,070 within mainstream science so those are 1011 00:41:28,930 --> 00:41:26,840 some thoughts to chew on I'd love to 1012 00:41:31,210 --> 00:41:28,940 hear from you hear your opinions on that 1013 00:41:35,860 --> 00:41:31,220 of course the place to do that is in the 1014 00:41:37,870 --> 00:41:35,870 skeptical format ske PTI ke o comm where 1015 00:41:39,910 --> 00:41:37,880 you can link on over the forum or right 1016 00:41:42,340 --> 00:41:39,920 there on the website where you can add a 1017 00:41:44,530 --> 00:41:42,350 comment love to hear from you love to 1018 00:41:47,290 --> 00:41:44,540 dialogue with you and hear different 1019 00:41:49,030 --> 00:41:47,300 opinions on these topics it's great to 1020 00:41:50,770 --> 00:41:49,040 see new people come into the forum 1021 00:41:52,810 --> 00:41:50,780 people sometimes leave the forum and 1022 00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:52,820 then come back a lot later or leave 1023 00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:54,530 comments and then you won't see them for 1024 00:41:58,150 --> 00:41:56,690 a year and then they pop up again but I 1025 00:42:00,940 --> 00:41:58,160 think that's a natural part of the 1026 00:42:03,070 --> 00:42:00,950 process it certainly was and is for me 1027 00:42:05,410 --> 00:42:03,080 in terms of trying to get my arms around 1028 00:42:07,690 --> 00:42:05,420 new information there's a lot of popping 1029 00:42:10,810 --> 00:42:07,700 in and out that we do and revisiting 1030 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:10,820 things and I hope that skeptic oh is one 1031 00:42:14,769 --> 00:42:12,770 of those resources that you can 1032 00:42:16,929 --> 00:42:14,779 occasionally touch back on 1033 00:42:18,939 --> 00:42:16,939 and see where we're at and in that same 1034 00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:18,949 spirit I hope you'll invite others to 1035 00:42:24,969 --> 00:42:21,890 come dip their toe into the skeptical 1036 00:42:26,499 --> 00:42:24,979 waters and see what they find so that's 1037 00:42:28,839 --> 00:42:26,509 going to do it for this episode I have a 1038 00:42:30,549 --> 00:42:28,849 number of episodes coming up again 1039 00:42:33,099 --> 00:42:30,559 they're kind of piling up it's a little 1040 00:42:35,589 --> 00:42:33,109 bit too much for me to promise to get a 1041 00:42:37,870 --> 00:42:35,599 new episode out every week especially 1042 00:42:40,029 --> 00:42:37,880 with new material that's why I kind of 1043 00:42:42,069 --> 00:42:40,039 popped this one in there that allowed me 1044 00:42:44,349 --> 00:42:42,079 to kind of republish some old material 1045 00:42:47,469 --> 00:42:44,359 but we'll just have to see how it goes 1046 00:42:49,169 --> 00:42:47,479 in terms of getting out new shows glad 1047 00:42:52,359 --> 00:42:49,179 you're with me hope you stick around